Ford vs. Ferrari - Are we Racing?

[Audi1]

So, I'm opening my Hagerty monthly magazine today and there's a whole section on the 1966 Le Mans shoot-out at the OK Corral. Then I open my Twitter feed and there's another retweet of the video trailer for the new movie with Matt Damon and Christian Bale; I start counting the days to the release of that film...……. and I start wondering if we should do one of these in 1/32 scale...….

Some of us grew up in the '60's and '70's and for car racing, there wasn't much bigger than the saga of Ford vs. Ferrari. Scorned by Enzo's defection to Fiat in the face of what looked like a viable merger offer, Henry II decides that it's time for Ford to show Ferrari that they don't really need them after all. And it looks bleak in 1964 and 1965; the first two years of the 3 year Ford GT-40 program. But, in 1966 cracks start to show in the Maranello armor and it becomes clear that an unseating of the perennial Le Mans champions is not only possible, but likely. Enter Le Mans, 1966; the showdown between the 4.0L 330P3 and the 7.0L GT-40 MkII - finesse and breed vs. power and drive.

And you all know what happened - right? That's what we're all waiting to see, again, in the release of the movie Ford vs. Ferrari.

53 years on, we're getting pumped again to re-live that moment; the one that lifted the exotic mask of European-dominated Endurance racing and changed the perspective of that segment and, in many respects, all automotive racing, forever.

Should we take this opportunity to recall the glory days of Ford vs. Ferrari and put together a Proxy race based on the two cars that hammered it out on the 18th and 19th of June, 1966?

Perhaps, but I think we need to discuss it some to see how many triggers might get tripped by this idea.

If there is interest, then here are some very sketchy, top-line thoughts about how we might proceed:

1. Two cars only - if you're in the Ford camp, it's the Slot.It Ford GT-40 MkII; if you're in the Ferrari camp, then it's the Policar Ferrari 330 P3
2. Fantasy liveries allowed
3. Chassis - open
4. Motor - open
5. Gearing - open
6. Wheels the tires to scale - yes, we can work those details out if this goes ahead; rubber tires only
7. 10 race series on routed wood tracks in the US and Canada
8. Start date around March 1st.

Any triggers tripping?

As Henry II said in his famous 1965 Christmas letter to his Execs - "you better win".

Allan

[slothead]

Scalextric also has versions of these cars if anyone would consider a mostly stock series to run beside the Slot.it & Policar series. Stock chassis but running gear (axles, gears, wheels, and motor) can be changed. Perhaps there should be a tire rule - stock, PG, or Quick Slicks. Stock body but new numbers can be placed over stock ones and other period correct decals added to differentiate cars. Limited number of entries with equal numbers of Fords and Ferraris. Points awarded to each car and manufacturer (Ford or Ferrari) for each race. The focus in not mostly on which car wins, but how the teams do relative to each other.

Also, 1/32 of 24 hours is 45 minutes. So, for each race the number of lanes and cars are used to calculate sessions so each car is raced for 45 minutes total. Finishing order is based on laps completed. When the 45 minute time is reached each car gets to complete it's current lap and if there is a tie based on lap count the first car to complete it's number of laps is the tie breaker. Other details about race structure such as driver or lane rotation is left to the host.

Thoughts?

[viejoronnie]

For 1966 there were 20+ Fords and Ferrari entered.

Lots of choices to replicate the orginal liveries.

http://lemans.sqwib.org/annee.php?annee=1966

[Austin]

I think 12 of the 20 Fords didn't even finish the race. And only 3

Ferrari 330 P3 were enterd. So 20 ford GTs, 3 Ferraris 330 P3s who had the best odds of winning ?

Open it up to all cars that run the Le-Mans 1966 and have a real race.

Sorry just thinking

Porsche came in 4, 5, 6, 7 and 2 that didn't finish

[Audi1]

Yes, the under 2.0L Porsche 906's proved to be very competitive. Their real race was against the Matra 620's. But, no one makes a 620, unless you want to go to MMK; and that's not cheap!

Allan

[docdoom]

Or just do a 1966 le mans proxies. If it ran in 1966 race it is good to go

[Brumos RSR]

I'm in, I have a lot of work to do to the #33 p 330 Ferrari

[slothead]

"20 ford GTs, 3 Ferraris 330 P3s who had the best odds of winning ?"

Precisely - Ford didn't commit all that money to lose. Reminds me of the saying about bringing a gun to a knife fight. A football coach of mine used to say 'take a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito' to get us motivated to destroy a lesser opponent.

If there's gonna be any Ford v. Ferrari proxies inspired by the movie they should be for Fords and Ferraris. Anyone who wants to can start a general Le Mans proxy for the same era

[GT6]

Dang! I swore I was going to cut way down on proxy racing this year and stick closer to home, but this sounds really tempting.

Some comments:

• First off a bit of a clarification - isn't the modern Policar release a Ferrari P4 (1967) model. There was a much earlier Policar P3 but it is the old, very low quality Polistil model. If this is the case, then to be period correct should the field be opened to include the FordMk IV models that raced against the P4? Just puttin' this out there, I'm OK with being period incorrect and only running Mk IIs vs P4s - hey, it's toy cars :-).
• If the chassis and motor choices are open, then does the make of the body shell matter? Is there a reason not to open it to any GT40 Mk I/MkII(/Mk IV?) or Ferrari P2/3/4 body. Probably appropriate to set a max width across the outer sidewalls though. I'm actually more in favour of restricting both body shell and the chassis / pod/ wheels to stock items.
• What about making it a little more like the real Ford vs Ferrari wars - the Fords have to run FK180 (long can) motors and are limited to 20Krpm but no torque restrictions, while the Ferraris have to run FC-130s (short can) with a max torque of say 180 or 200 gcm but no rpm limit.

cheers
Scott

[Austin]

Ok just ordered this Ferrari to blow away them fords

Yes it will have Lights front and rear

[indybob008]

The New Scaly Ford GT are very nice cars. Really smooth and the lights look great in the simi dark room. They wont break any speed records but their quite fast really. They have decent tires also. Be fun to have a endurance race with them.

[Dogsbody]

I'd be interested if you kept it to Slot It and Policar only and dictated a spec motor for both, the Slot It orange 21.K for example. And I know I'm dreaming (on this site) but will someone PLEASE run a proxy with silicone tires? I'm tired of hobbling my cars with urethanes...

Anyway, I'm ready (sorta)...

[Audi1]

Thanks for the comments.

As much as I like some of the other cars that raced at Le Mans in 1966; including, in particular the Porsche 906's and the Matra 620's, I think that this is about Ford vs. Ferrari and there were really only two big contestants at that show; the GT-40, MkII and the 330 P3. So, I'm inclined to leave it a two car race - since the run for the money in 1966 was definitely a two car affair.

Policar markets their 330 as a P4, but the two cars are virtually unrecognizable as different from the outside. The P4 used the F1-derived V12 motor bored out to 4.0 liters with 450 bhp. I think for the purpose of this proxy, we can simply designate the Policar 330P as a P3 and go from there. There isn't anyone who won't recognize the famous pairing if you have a Slot.It GT-40 facing a Policar 330 P4 on the track. So, I'm inclined to make it a two car race.

I do like the idea of a spec motor and although the Slot.It Orange endbell has been mentioned by several (comes stock on the Slot.It GT-40, MkII and the Policar 330 P), the SCC 21.500 rpm Piranha is, in my experience, a much more drivable motor; much less peaky and with a great power band to work with. So, I would be inclined to make that the spec motor if we go that way.

One or two of you mentioned using the stock plastic chassis instead of making the chassis open. This is a possibility, as both the Slot.It Ford GT-40 MkII and the Policar 330 P use the same or similar motor pods, but it is a limitation and I'm not sure if it's needed or not.

A spec tire is a step further than I think we want to go, as leaving tuning options open to racers is usually one of the important draws of any proxy. And, as far as tire composition goes, we've raced mostly on rubber over the past several years here on HRW, so I think that rubber is probably still the way to go. No silicones and no urethanes.

Still more to think about, but it's getting narrowed down with your help.

Allan

[Brumos RSR]

Rule possibilities: limit chassis to factory, motor rpm to 22,400, rubber tire, choice of pod, bushings or bearings, ride height limit and Factory style insert. Open wheels, tires within fender limit, open interior.

[Barc 1]

Well I am interested and accept the idea of Ford Vs Ferrari.

Just wondering why the need to limit the shell manufacturers. Seems like everything is being left open for a flat out fast proxy. I already have Scalextrics body of these two cars, and I just am wondering why you want to go with the manufacturers you listed? what is wrong with the scalextrics shells?