THIS THREAD IS NOT INTENDED TO BE DEFINITIVE/CONCLUSIVE, ONLY TO START DISCUSSION
This thread is a follow-on to my comments in the “Rules/registration” thread.
Guys, you know I am Johnny come lately to this proxy, both in terms of participating (never before) and now managing (also never before). So in order to do either of these two things in any kind of meaningful way, I had to start looking at history. And the more I looked, the more conflicted I became.
In looking, if I were to create a “philosophical existential” statement for this proxy, I suspect it would have to be along the lines of “To create a racing series showcasing the spirit and the cars of the Can-Am series from 1966 to 1974. The desire is to have as broad as possible representation of cars from this era that look period correct, are good scale representations and allow all entrants a reasonable chance of success.”
So I started researching:
1. I initially started looking into past debates on the proxy:
3. The results were damning:
But IF I was to be more adventurous, what can I do? Alternate RTR bodies are few and far between:
That leaves resin cast bodies. But that is not inexpensive, it is a lot of work and also faces an uphill struggle to be competitive
Analysis
Guys, in looking at this, I am struggling to find a place in the sun for a proxy constituted on the current basis. We will ALWAYS be limited in the variety of cars available to race. We will ALWAYS be faced with the advantage that Thunderslot has in the range of cars that ARE available. We are almost certainly destined to lose potential 3D entries to the dedicated 3D Can-Am proxy. History has proven that there really is not a huge appetite for people to create resin cast bodied cars. Yes, there are a few diehard, excellent builders. But not enough to base a proxy on.
Let there be no doubt: I am a child of the sixties and Can-Am is near and dear to my heart.
But I look at the above and I fear I struggle to see a sound foundation for a proxy.
The alternative
I know that, initially, people shied away from a proxy that was similar to the Ford vs. Ferrari proxy, hence the exclusion of FIA cars from this proxy. But sports cars of that era were not limited to Fords and Ferraris. What appeals to me is a hybrid class proxy that covers al the sports-TYPE cars of the era. And yes, that would include Can-Am cars. The field should represent typical racing that you would have seen around the world on many tracks in the (say) 1960 to early1970 period.
A quick listing of a sample of potentially eligible cars, many of which are readily available, to provide a flavour of the series as I see it:
Alfa 33
Alfa TZ2
Alpine Renault A210/A220
Chevron B8
Chevron B16
Chevron B19/21
Ferrari 250GTO
Ferrari 275P
Ferrari P4
Ferrari 312
Ferrari 512
Ford GT40 Mk I/Mk II
Ford P68
Lola T70 Spyder (all marks)
Lola T70 Mk 3 Coupe
Lola T160/T162/T163
Lola T222
Matra
Mirage
McLaren M6
McLaren M8
McLaren M20
Porsche 906
Porsche 907
Porsche 908 (all varieties)
Porsche 910
Porsche 917
Porsche 917/10
Porsche 917/30
In this group of cars there are many that can be competitive as RTR cars with a bit of work. So iin a proxy of this nature one can expect a field with a decent variety of similar era, similar real world performance cars that would be capable of winning. For instance: my PoliCar P4 is on par with my Thunderslots. A bunch of NSR models are competitive with Thunderslots.
And as mentioned at the outset, this is not meant as a coup d’etat. This is meant as a logical review of the vision for this proxy and how current realities affect this vision.
I would appreciate if I could get some discussion on this topic please. I would like to get a good perspective of opinions “out there” and make sure that, as we move forward with the proxy, we do so on a strong base. Questions that I would like you to comment on:
Alwyn
This thread is a follow-on to my comments in the “Rules/registration” thread.
Guys, you know I am Johnny come lately to this proxy, both in terms of participating (never before) and now managing (also never before). So in order to do either of these two things in any kind of meaningful way, I had to start looking at history. And the more I looked, the more conflicted I became.
In looking, if I were to create a “philosophical existential” statement for this proxy, I suspect it would have to be along the lines of “To create a racing series showcasing the spirit and the cars of the Can-Am series from 1966 to 1974. The desire is to have as broad as possible representation of cars from this era that look period correct, are good scale representations and allow all entrants a reasonable chance of success.”
So I started researching:
1. I initially started looking into past debates on the proxy:
- An immediate concern was the perceived advantage that the “big cars” of the seventies had. This related particularly to the Carrera models (Porsche 917/30, McLaren M20, Lola T222). In real life, these were way bigger cars than their predecessors and offered immediate slot car advantages. To counter that, the artificial 62mm rule was implemented.
- There was a fear that the FIA group 4 cars (Ford GT40, Porsche 917 et al) would dominate numbers due to so many good, basic cars being available. These cars were therefore excluded to keep the race a “pure” group 7 race.
- As races progressed it became clear that the newer Thunderslot cars were i) freely available, ii) relatively inexpensive and iii) blisteringly fast. So one of the topics of conversations became “How do we prevent this becoming a one make race?”
- 15 of the 24 cars had either Thunderslot or Slot.it chassis
- 18 of the 24 cars had either Thunderslot or Slot.it bodies
- 17 of the 24 cars had either McLaren M6, McLaren M8 or Lola T70 bodies
- There were 2 resin and 2 3D printed bodied cars
3. The results were damning:
- Thunderslot took 7 of the top 10 places
- Slot.it took the remaining 3 top 10 places
- All the top 10 cars were either McLaren M6’s, McLaren M8’s or Lola T70’s
But IF I was to be more adventurous, what can I do? Alternate RTR bodies are few and far between:
- Yes, you can try to get hold of a Monogram McLaren M6. But it might be a hassle to find, likely not cheap and it is so small (and VERY accurate scale-wise!) it will never be competitive. So that’s a no.
- I can try to get hold of a Monogram Lola T70. But they are also not that easy to find and why on earth would I enter just another T70 that is going to be all but impossible to get competitive with a Thunderslot?
- I can try to get hold of an HSRR McLaren M8 but the same arguments apply. I think I will pass
- I can enter one of the big Carreras. They are relatively freely available and quite inexpensive. But the native chassis will NEVER be competitive. So I will have to create, or at least fit, a different chassis. And then the car would still be hobbled by the excessive weight of the body and the limited rear track. No, not an attractive proposition either. And that is reflected in the lone Carrera entry in 2019
- I can enter a Slot.it Chaparral 2E. But it is going to be tough to make it really winningly competitive.
- What else is there in terms of eligible RTR cars?
That leaves resin cast bodies. But that is not inexpensive, it is a lot of work and also faces an uphill struggle to be competitive
Analysis
Guys, in looking at this, I am struggling to find a place in the sun for a proxy constituted on the current basis. We will ALWAYS be limited in the variety of cars available to race. We will ALWAYS be faced with the advantage that Thunderslot has in the range of cars that ARE available. We are almost certainly destined to lose potential 3D entries to the dedicated 3D Can-Am proxy. History has proven that there really is not a huge appetite for people to create resin cast bodied cars. Yes, there are a few diehard, excellent builders. But not enough to base a proxy on.
Let there be no doubt: I am a child of the sixties and Can-Am is near and dear to my heart.
But I look at the above and I fear I struggle to see a sound foundation for a proxy.
The alternative
I know that, initially, people shied away from a proxy that was similar to the Ford vs. Ferrari proxy, hence the exclusion of FIA cars from this proxy. But sports cars of that era were not limited to Fords and Ferraris. What appeals to me is a hybrid class proxy that covers al the sports-TYPE cars of the era. And yes, that would include Can-Am cars. The field should represent typical racing that you would have seen around the world on many tracks in the (say) 1960 to early1970 period.
A quick listing of a sample of potentially eligible cars, many of which are readily available, to provide a flavour of the series as I see it:
Alfa 33
Alfa TZ2
Alpine Renault A210/A220
Chevron B8
Chevron B16
Chevron B19/21
Ferrari 250GTO
Ferrari 275P
Ferrari P4
Ferrari 312
Ferrari 512
Ford GT40 Mk I/Mk II
Ford P68
Lola T70 Spyder (all marks)
Lola T70 Mk 3 Coupe
Lola T160/T162/T163
Lola T222
Matra
Mirage
McLaren M6
McLaren M8
McLaren M20
Porsche 906
Porsche 907
Porsche 908 (all varieties)
Porsche 910
Porsche 917
Porsche 917/10
Porsche 917/30
In this group of cars there are many that can be competitive as RTR cars with a bit of work. So iin a proxy of this nature one can expect a field with a decent variety of similar era, similar real world performance cars that would be capable of winning. For instance: my PoliCar P4 is on par with my Thunderslots. A bunch of NSR models are competitive with Thunderslots.
And as mentioned at the outset, this is not meant as a coup d’etat. This is meant as a logical review of the vision for this proxy and how current realities affect this vision.
I would appreciate if I could get some discussion on this topic please. I would like to get a good perspective of opinions “out there” and make sure that, as we move forward with the proxy, we do so on a strong base. Questions that I would like you to comment on:
- Do we accept that it will likely be a challenge, but we continue to commit to the current format of the proxy because it is meaningful to us all?
- Do we accept there is an issue and hit pause to refine a viable, vibrant alternative?
- Do we accept that we are facing a challenge, for this upcoming series we soldier on with the rules as I have just posted for now and use the time to consider the future?
Alwyn
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