Suspensions and weighting... good or bad?

[GearHead36]

This is sorts of a continuation of the discussion I started here.

Let's talk suspensions first. This is something of a new feature that wasn't available when I raced 1/32, 10 yrs ago. At least not on somewhat affordable cars. Now I see that several companies offer various suspension systems. Are they good or bad? I'm not asking if they improve lap times. What info I've found has indicated that, yes, they do. Traction magnets also improve lap times, too, but IMO, they make the racing worse. So do suspensions make RACING better or worse? Do they make the cars easier to drive? To me, closer racing, and more side-by-side racing would be an improvement. Do suspensions do that?

Adding weight vs lightening:

I recently watched some videos of endurance races in the U.K. Seems to be pretty popular over there. They use 3D printed chassis, suspensions and no traction magnets. They seem pretty serious about it. Many teams use chassis from Slot.it , NSR, Revo Slot, etc. But most of the “stock” chassis get lightened See this video for reference.

Last time I raced 1/32, most no-mag cars needed ADDITIONAL weight to handle well. So what’s going on? Do motor pods with suspensions eliminate the need for weighting?

[docdoom]

So what i have found and others results may vary. the Suspension works well on plastic tracks and has very little advantages on a wood track.. most of those cars were running long can motor that have a very strong magnet effect that work well on those ninco track they ran in that race. tires tires is were the rear traction is

[lance]

The video you linked to it a video from the UK. It is the put on by the DISCA 1/32 {digital} and slot it. run on ninco track. up to 20 cars run at a time.
the chassis lightening is actually a 3D printed chassis by someone and is available at Shapeways.
several different classes running at this event. Each class has different set of rules for the car. That is why some are stock chassis and some are 3DP chassis.
Slotcar racing in UK, they use plastic track which is rough where the track pieces are put together, so some use suspention. Also the hanout motor was a long can, but many in UK use big can motors in their slot cars. The big can motor can have a magneic effect to the metal rails.

[GearHead36]

At 4:10, the video shows a car from team Gruppo Slottistico il Miglio. They use a Slot.it chassis in LMP1. At 4:48, team Posillipo Slot Club's cars are shown. Chassis: Slot.it. Class: LMP1. At 5:02, a chassis from one of the cars is shown. No 3D printed chassis. No lightened chassis. At 6:35, team Gasclavat's car & chassis is shown. It's a custom 3D printed chassis, and it's for the GT class. At 8:30, they show team Viking's car & chassis. It appears to have no lightening done to the chassis.

In another DiSCA video, team Rockingham (an LMP1 team) stated that they bought the winning car from the previous year... and lightened the chassis.

So some teams are using lightened chassis. Some are not. None appear to be using weights. Do those long can motors provide enough downforce to eliminate the need for weighting? How many grams of downforce (ballpark) will they provide? Or is it a function of the track. The tracks I ran on that rewarded chassis weighting were MUCH shorter and tighter than the DiSCA tracks, which are HUGE. On the tracks I ran, corner speed was king.

[RichD]

My club does not race cars with traction magnets, all of our tracks but one are wood so traction magnets would mostly be ballast. On tracks with steel rails some motors will add a measure of magnetic downforce. Years ago my club only had Scalextric Sport tracks and all of our cars had traction magnets. At that time we used homemade scales to measure downforce and set a maximum value for that. When we got away from using traction magnets we reduced the track voltage to 10 volts, which has become the standard practice with many other clubs.
There are a number of cars that run very well without motor pods and there are cars with motor pods that run well with the motor pod locked down. Some cars may have motor pods with springs or magnetic suspension, I have not seen much value in that as opposed to not having springs and leaving the pod screws loose. With respect to adding weight that should be the last step in tuning a car to run without traction magnets.
See this article: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzL...ew?usp=sharing

[GearHead36]

I forgot to mention... yesterday I had access to a Magnet Marshal, and I measured the downforce on my Can-Am Slot.it, with orange endbell motor in sidewinder configuration. 8 grams. So the orange endbell motors provide almost zero magnetic downforce.

[chrisguyw]

I forgot to mention... yesterday I had access to a Magnet Marshal, and I measured the downforce on my Can-Am Slot.it, with orange endbell motor in sidewinder configuration. 8 grams. So the orange endbell motors provide almost zero magnetic downforce.

While many motors will provide more (much more) magnetic downforce, 8 grams is still significant, as it is likely more than 10% of your cars' overall weight, and will make a very measurable difference to performance.

Cheers
Chris Walker

[GearHead36]

While many motors will provide more (much more) magnetic downforce, 8 grams is still significant, as it is likely more than 10% of your cars' overall weight, and will make a very measurable difference to performance.

Cheers
Chris Walker

The car weighs 69 gm as I recall, so 8 gm is over 10%. However, this car needs weighting. Right now it has none, and is quite tail-happy. I have another Slot.it, a Group C Jag with inline motor, and it needs weighting too. So the question is, why do some cars benefit from having weight added, and some benefit from having weight removed?

BTW, Rich, I started on that article you linked to. It looks to very informative. And very long. I haven't finished it yet. Thanks.

[docdoom]

What type of track surface and tires are you using? Having the correct tire is 90% of the battle for traction. Also is the track clean ong with the tires.

[GearHead36]

Track is Carrera. Tires are silicone. Not sure if silicone is the best option. I have some tire testing planned with a variety of tires.

[War Eagle River]

Track is Carrera. Tires are silicone. Not sure if silicone is the best option. I have some tire testing planned with a variety of tires.

What tires does the club specify? That would be your starting point. If it’s silicone, the track must be cleaned before every use to get the maximum performance. If it’s rubber/urethane, than it takes a bit to get the track rubbered in, then the grip keeps getting better.

[chrisguyw]

Gearhead, Silicones are generally a very good choice for Carrera track, but, as has been stated, the track must be clean/dust free for the best performance. And, there are silicones and there are silicones, with several manufactures offering their own various formulations. While everyone will have their own preferences, it is wise to test a few on your own track,...try a couple of different manufacturers, and a couple of different diameters !!

Quick Sliks, and Super tires are both very good choices.

As you appear to run with magnets, the lighter you can make your car the better, as the magnets will have a much easier time holding a lighter car on the track..(as a simple experiment, run your car without the body for a few laps).

You can tune the performance of the car with stronger/weaker magnets, bigger/smaller dia. tires, and by positioning the magnets on various locations on the chassis.......if the car comes out at the nose, the magnet(s) can be positioned further forward, if the car is tail happy, the magnet(s) can be moved further back (this assumes your rules permit this).

I also assume that you have trued both front and rear wheel/tire assemblies ??..............this makes a massive difference in the handling/grip/ lap times of any car, magnets or not, and is the single biggest improvement you can make.

While chassis tuning with weight is an important aspect in no magnet racing, it is not the best solution for improving a magnet cars performance.

Cheers
Chris Walker

[GearHead36]

According to the LEB Hobbies product page for the motor used by the DiSCP LMP1 class (Slot.it MIN09CH), it generates 10 gm of downforce. Not sure how they know that. Wouldn't it change a bit depending on the car? Anyway, 10 gm is right in line with my Can-Am. Their cars are likely heavier than my Can-Am, as theirs have electronics and lights. So the downforce as a % of total weight is likely very similar.

[RichD]

Dust sticks to silicone tires, if there is even a small amount of dust on the track the tires will get coated and your grip will be reduced. The quick way to clean silicone tires is to roll them on sticky tape. If you run a half dozen laps starting with clean tires then clean them again a few cycles of running and cleaning will pick up all of the dust, at least where the tires roll. Unless a track is in a really dusty area it should not be necessary to wipe down the track.
I know from experience that even the modest amount of downforce that some motors might add can be significant if you are running on a track with steel rails or magnetic braid. The 25K Piranha motor from Slot Car Corner has very strong neodymium magnets and will stick to the side of your refrigerator, so it will also stick your car to the track to a certain extent. Some long can motors are available in low and higher downforce versions. Thin Mu Metal shielding can be used to reduce that downforce.

[GearHead36]

Gearhead, Silicones are generally a very good choice for Carrera track, but, as has been stated, the track must be clean/dust free for the best performance.

They seem pretty grippy for 3 minutes, given that I don't get the tires dirty by letting it slide around too much.

As you appear to run with magnets

Where did you get this? This discussion is about tuning cars with no traction magnets by adding weight, removing weight, or using suspensions.